How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.<<. Sprowl Funeral Sprowl Funeral and Cremation Care is compassionately serving the family of Richard Mark Williams, 48, who passed away on February 20, 2023. RC seems to be a bit dodgy here. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Why? developing an alchoholic psychosis), then they have to have help to be restored enough to MAKE a decision about if they want to go forward in a good direction or not. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. And, yes, there is more. As word of these charges spread a number of other former members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church also stepped forward and corroborated the allegations, including the fact that some of their own children had been plied with alcohol without their consent. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. These evangelical arguments that its in the Bible and that settles it get very old. So far youve been entirely nebulous about it. @ okrapod: I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . I have said nothing medical at all in any way. That is a whole different level of bad behavior. But to say that is what is causing him to stumble? I would advise caution. Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. These need help. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. so he keeps the whole thing going? Televangelists and other huckster preachers have done it many times. He said I was his first patient to do that and he complies since he knew we are medical people and could spot a problem with a clot. Once again, you are a bit strong. Couldnt even stand up. But we have to remember that those consequences dont have to be eternal ones but only temporary. Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. Sproul 2s drinking (and whatever other problems that he has) and an intervention by family and friends with a trained professional. I didnt know about his second marriage. The group gathered around him to pray. R.C. @ Velour: I received a thank you today from someone who has just such a struggle, is a Christian, and lurks here. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. I have heard that alcoholism which begins as a reaction to another issue, can become itself an issue as large and consuming as the original one. In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. Someone commented and said that this was the only time that R.C. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) Thats not the answer to their problems. This is not cruel. H.A. Velour wrote: Thank you, Bridget! So I was only saying what the Bible says. He took me home. @ Barbara Roberts: Velour wrote: . But on Sunday mornings he taught a class at Oreland Presbyterian Church comprised mostly of adult professionals. She can run her blog how she likes. Many of us have suffered tragedies. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . Has that been reported on or discussed? I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. She said, if you dont want to talk, its okay, but write me a letter .. she said just take the stationery and spill some coffee across it and sign your name and put it in envelope and SEND it. I did. The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. Whatever that hurt is, it must be addressed. The problem with your narrative is weve seen it all before. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. R.C. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). I think that is all what she was getting at, her basic point. Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. A lovely woman in my church was an alcoholic. Do they criticize non-drinkers? The guy is not repentant until he is caught. Church attendance wont cure much of anything, but the people of the church should support one another through thick and thin. His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. and me and she advocated that people with addictions be kicked out of church. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, We have never banned a person from our blog for using the word codependent. Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. It is a gift. Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. 2. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. Julie Anne wrote: Even pastor Wade Burleson who has E-Church here on Sundays doesnt subscribe to that. Will he receive it? But he stopped going to AA and we realized he was drinking again. That he should get treatment; and The process which Christ Jesus taught was not kicking someone out. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? I realize that you and I may not ever come to a point of complete agreement. but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. I offered H.A. He has suffered tragedies, yes. You are correct. The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. What he did was wrong. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. It was as a college freshman that R.C. And thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your family. No, it doesnt always work. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. Ah, but by their theology, he also bears a certain immunity. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.). : Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. Yes, that daughter needs HELP!!! The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.jr.s book. The 19-year old mother died, leaving s two-year old without a mother. throw him out of the house. We hear all of the time the horrible counseling advice from Nouthetic Counseling/Biblical Counseling that people who are depressed or have other mental health problems arent really Christians if they take medication, havent tried hard enough, etc. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death. Am still not seeing how sitting about with other people will cure certain issues such as alcoholism. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. It really was an answer to prayer, and it wasnt the clinic that I originally picked out after an extensive internet search. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. and I have a problem with the Bible. I did check the link that H.A. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. New TWW post. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. From 1 Cor. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. The obituary was featured in Orlando Sentinel on December 15, 2017. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. I know 10 years ago if someone indicated a drinking or drug problem I would simply recommended AA or NA or rehab, where at that time they would most likely be directed to attend 12 step meetings after treatment. RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. 2. Many of us have suffered tragedies. Not born again huh? NO, there is no authoritative oversight, for a couple of reasons. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. Sadly the SBC expects everyone to be in lock step and they do everything they can to create fear in leaders lives that they will lose their paying positions. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. If that wasnt bad enough, look who wrote the books foreword: Tullian Tchividjian Coral Ridge Presbyterian Churchs ousted pastor who was caught in serial clergy sexual misconduct, and who has never repented to the victims he harmed! Even if they were a woman. A wounded (broken, messed up) spirit who can bear? Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. your anger is showing, yes Their denial is just a problematic as the person who is the problem drinker. Sproul, Jr.s case. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Let the medical personnel deal with motivations, when and if the person ends up in treatment, if they think that is helpful. ), Thank you so much for this balanced and compassionate post, George. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. Blessings on you, under the words of Himself about blessed are the peacemakers. I truly hurt for you. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. Hes apparently a carbon copy of Mark Driscoll, only with an alcohol problem. @ Velour: I can believe it, Leslie, that Christians couldnt safely share this information in their churches about their families without judgment, put downs, and potential gossip. 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